it was a summer blockbuster, a movie that they waited in line to see but now you can see the road closed sign behind me where tragedy erupted just last night.

it was the movie, the newest in the "batman" installment. people were excited. it was a sold out theater. they were in this darkened theater together and then at one point there was gunfire on the screen and a man lobbed the canister and what happened after that was chaos. good evening. i'm chris jansing coming to you live from aurora, colorado, and this is an msnbc special news report, tragedy in aurora. >> new details about the massacre. >> one of the deadliest shootings in history. >> the massacre took place in theater 9 in the century 16 movie complex in aurora, colorado. >> at least 12 people are dead. >> witnesses say a gunman entered the theater. >> suspect was dressed all in black. he was wearing a ballistic helmet. >> the shooting suspect has been confirmed as 24-year-old james holmes. >> he walked into the midnight

showing of "the dark knight rises." >> a shotgun in the theater and 40 caliber glock. >> everyone tried to race for the exit. >> faces covered in blood. >> i had gun shells falling on my head. >> police confirmed the apartment where the suspect lives appears to be rigged with explosive material. >> our investigation determined that his apartment is booby trapped with various incendiary and chemical devices and trip wires. >> we heard nothing about what the apparent motive is, why he did this. >> we are being as cautious as possible with the investigation as we move forward.

>> we are back now live in aurora. everyone is asking at this hour, why, what is the motive? if police know one, they are not saying. what we do know is that earlier today the ten bodies that were still inside that theater started to be removed. we are expecting any time now to get a list of those who were killed, although police also say that they have not been able to reach the families of all the victims. now, 58 people were also injured when a gunman opened fire just after midnight, as we said. the film is "the dark knight rises." police started receiving calls at 12:39 a.m. local time in colorado. >> people are running out of the theater and they are shot. >> do we have gas masks available? >> east side.

east side. >> officers on the east side. >> survivors describe the scene as confusion, chaos, as the gunman walked into the theater just after the movie began. he detonated that canister of either smoke or tear gas and then began firing into the crowd. so many rounds that police say they have no idea how many. one official says the suspect bought a ticket like everyone else, went in as part of the crowd. it was inside theater 9, the century 16 movie theater. what we're hearing from witnesses is that he propped open one of the emergency doors after using it to leave the theater and that's when he came back in. police say they took the suspect into custody without incident outside that same emergency exit.

authorities searched his car, which was located just outside. they confirmed that they recovered four guns, three that he had with him apparently inside the theater, one from the car. they were a remmington model 890, single barrel, 12 gauge shotgun, two 40 caliber glock and an assault rifle. we have also learned that these guns were purchased within the last two months. the most recent just a couple of weeks ago. all of them were purchased legally. now, let's take a look at what we do know about this suspect. police tell nbc news that james eagan holmes had dyed his hair. it was kind of this orangish hair and he identified himself as the joker. he's 24 years old, originally from san diego. he was a ph.d. student at the university of colorado in denver and, in fact, he's been described as a brilliant science student.

the university says he enrolled in june of last year but was in the process of withdrawing from the neuroscience graduate program. after his arrest, he actually told police that his apartment was booby trapped and police went in there, found all sorts of trip wires, they found what they believe are incendiary devices. they have a huge problem on their hands. although, of the five apartment buildings in the complex where he lived, in four of them police are slowly going to allow people to go back in and get emergency supplies, things like medicine or baby supplies. however, obviously that apartment building is still in lockdown. let me bring a couple of people who yesterday were complete -- please, come on in. who were excited about coming to this movie. joining me now are jennifer seeger and corbin. you guys are best friends? >> yes, we are. >> when did you realize something was very wrong? >> well, when he first came in, you know, everybody thought it was part of the show.

you know, we thought that he was going to just add some extra pizzaz. >> he was all in black? >> yes, exactly. and that's what everybody was thinking. that's why they were hesitant at first to even react. and then once he threw the gas can as far as -- we don't know what kind of gas it was. it looked like tear gas or something like that and people started coughing and freaking out at that point. then we started to realize there was something else going on and just to clarify, after that, he took his first shot into the ceiling to make everybody get scared and it was just pandemonium and chaos at that point. and there's so many people, there's a gun, they were running. at that point we realized he wasn't there to entertain. he was there to hurt people. >> so, corbin, what did you do? >> after the shots went off, we went to the floor and tried to bear crawl our way to safety. >> i was told that as he saw

people running, then he was aiming at people. is that what you saw? >> oh, yes. >> were you even trying to see where he was? >> he at the time was five feet away from me. he dropped to the ground first and he pulled a gun in front of my face and was literally four or five feet away from me. at that point i realized i only had, you know, a window of opportunity to move out of the way. >> he was literally pointing -- >> yes, ma'am. >> was it a handgun or -- >> it was a rifle. >> it was a rifle. at that point i was just so terrified i -- >> your heart must have stopped? >> yes, exactly. i said, you know what, i can either stand here and get shot or move and i dived into the aisle and tried to bury myself on top of him. >> did you see this happening? did you see him point a gun at her? >> i didn't see him point a gun at her because i was already on the ground and focused on the people in front of us so we could get them to crawl out as well, so we could make our way

around to the other side of the theater to make our way up the other side of the aisle. >> now, was it dark at this time? >> oh, yeah, and the movie was playing the whole time. there were people screaming and crying and gunshots. it was loud. it was hard to see and tell what was going on where. it was all happening at one time. >> did you realize right away there were people obviously that were not going to make it out of that theater alive? >> it seems it was going to end that way. >> so when did you finally -- when were you able to finally make your way out? >> it came to a point where the gunshots stopped for a brief moment. >> let me just stop you there. because the police say they don't know how many rounds went off. i mean, how long was this going on? was it just constant? >> it was like 15 to 20 minutes. >> yeah. >> 15 to 20 minutes that the rounds were going off and to the

point where there was a brief moment of silence and i looked up to see if he was anywhere around which i did not find. once i saw that there was a clearing, we booked out of there. >> and there were other people around us as well. we were trying to get everybody out to safety. at that point -- >> and there were kids in the movie? >> yes, there was. i heard there was a 6-year-old kid that got shot. there was a baby in there. there was 14-year-old kids, 13-year-old kids. when we were leaving i saw so many bodies just laying in the stairs, laying on the chairs. they were limp and laying lifeless. they looked dead to me. either that or they were injured. as they were going out, he left before me. he ran before me and i was crawling to try to get out. i nudged into this gentleman and he had a gunshot in his back and at that point i had some former ems training, an emt, and it kicked in instinctively and i took his pulse to see if he was alive or if he was okay. he wasn't doing so hot. i was like, you know, i'm going to save this guy.

i started to pull him and everybody's like, don't do that, don't do that. the gunner's coming. the gunner's coming. i pulled him three feet and i just left because i was scared. >> and you have no idea -- >> i have no idea if it was true or not. because my back was just turned to him at that point. i always think about it throughout the day. is that guy okay? i have no idea if he's one of those people that's dead. i have no idea. and it runs through my mind, or did i know somebody's that dead? highly likely. there's so many people that got injured. so many bodies. i couldn't believe -- he literally just went up and down aisles, shooting people, anybody that tried to escape, he would shoot. >> has it hit you yet what you witnessed and what you've experienced? >> right now i'm really still in the calm state. it hasn't really hit me but i'm pretty sure throughout the weekend it will take its toll on me. >> has it hit you that you came that close? >> i'm trying not to think about it because if i question it too much, i might dwell and get too

sad. i've had my emotional ups and downs. i've had moments where i was crying and really hysterical and been really calm. it's an up and down roller coaster for me as far as this is going. i'm in that numb stage, i haven't had time to soak it all in yet. >> one of the things that hit me, too, is family members trying to figure out who was in there. it was playing in a couple of theaters. and is my -- whoever, relative, friend one of the people who got injured? were you able to reach your families? what happened? >> as soon as we got out of the lobby and got out into the parking lot, i brought jenny back. >> they wanted my statement as far as that goes and then i called my parents, i called my friends that are close to me, as far as that goes. and i was just hysterical at that point. i just didn't know what to think.

i had a gun pointed at me. i was just trying to get through each moment and then they brought us to the school for more questioning and interviewing with the aurora police department. and that was just a calming moment from that time period. literally everything we've been through this past two days has been an up and down kind of thing. sometimes you think about it and it gets to you and other times it's like, i have to push forward and be strong for those people that have lost people. >> jenny, corbin. we are so glad that you're here. i hope that you're able to get some rest. seriously, thank you. i know this has been such a horrible tragedy in your community and we appreciate you coming on. >> thank you. >> again, we're left with this question, who is this man? why would he do this? mike taibbi has been looking into this and we will talk to him when we come back from the break, live from aurora, colorado.

we could be here for hours, we could be here for days. obviously we're very concerned about getting in there and get whatever evidence there is. but the pictures are pretty disturbing. it looks pretty sophisticated in terms of how it's booby trapped. [ freeman ] a hundredth of a second? ♪ it's faster than the blink of an eye. ♪ faster than a flash of lightning. and it was the difference between michael phelps winning

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through the internet he purchased more than 6,000 rounds of ammunition. more than 3,000 rounds of the 223 ammunition for the assault rifle, 3,000 rounds of 40-caliber ammunition for the two glocks in his possession and 300 rounds for the 12-gauge shotgun. also through the internet he purchased multiple magazines for the 223 caliber assault rifle, including one 100-round drum magazine, which was recovered from the scene. i've been asked, was the weapon

automatic or semi-automatic. i'm told by experts that with that drum magazine he could have gotten off 50 to 60 rounds even if it was semi-automatic within one minute. and as far as we know, it was a pretty rapid pace of fire in that theater. >> and that was from a news conference an hour ago getting more information. welcome back. i'm chris jansing. there are things that we're learning about james holmes. for example, he grew up in california. he went to undergrad there. in college, he was an honor grad. in fact, people say he was a brilliant science student. he moved to the denver, colorado, area and enrolled in a ph.d. program in neuroscience. for reasons that we don't know, recently he began the process of dropping out of the program.

why did he do what he did? nbc's mike taibbi looks into that. >> reporter: the few people who have contact with james eagan holmes describe him as not just quiet but lived with his shades drawn and revealed little. >> he kept to himself, didn't like a lot of attention. >> we never heard anything abnormal until midnight this morning when we heard loud tech know music playing. >> reporter: in the theater, witnesses say the suspect had no message at all. >> he didn't say a word. not a word. >> reporter: but he was dressed in full battle gear. >> he was wearing a ballistic helmet, a tactical ballistic vest, ballistic leggings, a throat protector and a grown protector and a gas mask and black, tactical gloves. >> he looks like a deranged individual.

he had his hair painted red. he said he was the joker. obviously the quote, the enemy of "batman." >> growing up in san diego, there was no sign of trouble. >> he was a nice kid, grew up in a nice neighborhood. >> reporter: then a bachelor of science degree in neuroscience of university of california at riverside. >> he was an honor student. academically, he was at the top of the top. >> reporter: before moving to colorado last year to study the biological basic of psychiatric and neurological disorders. he quit last month and in recent months he purchased four weapons exactly like these, the last bought two weeks ago. after the shootings, he warned police the mayhem might not be over. >> and our investigation determined that his apartment is booby trapped with various chemical devices and apparent trip wires. so we have an active and difficult scene. >> while the police worked deliberately and approached

holmes' apartment, that building and four others evacuated, the holmes' family in san diego issued a statement saying, our hearts go out to those who were involved in this tragedy. we are still trying to process this information. we appreciate that people will respect our privacy. >> and now i want to take you live to outside the apartment building where jeremy of our affiliate kusa is standing by live. jeremy, we had learned earlier that the police were going to allow some people to go back into their apartments in the buildings around the main building. but what's going on now? what can you tell us about their efforts to try to figure out exactly how serious the situation is inside that apartment, the booby trap? >> reporter: i can tell you, it's an extraordinary situation.

first we were told there were one liter bottles, unknown liquid connected to trip wires. within the past hours you heard during that press conference, the police chief saying that there appears to be more rounds and jars of ammunition inside this apartment complex. this scene appears to be a loaded apartment complex. it seems that this man was methodical in his planning and his thinking. we've been told and have been reporting all day today that the fire department and police department snapped photographs from outside the apartment. they snapped photographs and they are using those photographs to dissect their method on how they are going to enter this apartment. as you heard the chief of police say there from aurora, he's never seen anything like this. not only is there a significant amount of dangerous elements inside this apartment, but there's also potential evidence that they want to preserve. so that's why at this point they

did not move it. early your today this place was crawling with police. it was criss-cross with police tape, lots of paramedic vehicles here. tonight there's a sense of calm. there's a couple of officers there with the aurora police department. they told me they are going to be here until 11:00 tonight. residents that have and vacated can come and get medicine if they need to. there's been a center set up at a high school nearby. at this point people just want to go home, people who have been evacuated from these places here. when i did first get here about 3:00 colorado time, there were a lot of people just confused about what happened. you know, police were knocking on their doors early in the morning saying you got to get out. these poor folks had no idea what was happening in the theater, you know, miles away. at this point it's just a waiting game. a delicate process, a very sensitive process. the big priority for police is safety. >> and jeremy, what can you tell us about the reports that a couple of neighbors called

nonemergency numbers because there was music blasting between midnight and 1:00 a.m.? >> reporter: you know, it's a bizarre and strange account. i spoke with those neighbors. they live right underneath the apartment belonging to james holmes. they told me it was an apartment complex that was usually quiet and there was really no noises that came from the unit above them. these folks are pretty articulate when i spoke to them. they told me that, you know, all of a sudden, at the stroke of midnight, this loud techno music started to play and then for some reason all of a sudden it just cut off at 1:00 in the morning. they speculate it was perhaps some sort of timed sort of lure, maybe to lure someone to go knock on the door. that's what they speculate. if this has anything to do with the investigation, who knows. but it's certainly an interesting element in all of this.

>> jeremy julolo from kusa, thank you for taking the time. when we come back, we're going to talk to former fbi criminal profiler, clint van zandt, about how agents will approach it and what he can tell us about why this might have happened. ♪ why not try someplace different every morning? get two times the points on dining in restaurants with chase sapphire preferred. thought they were dead. huh? [ male announcer ] should've used roundup. it kills weeds to the root, so they don't come back. roundup. no root. no weed. no problem.

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he was a really big guy. he was wearing a gas mask. he looked like a s.w.a.t. guy, as far as that goes. he had a vest on. >> one of the witnesses inside the movie theater here in aurora, colorado, who is describing james holmes and tonight the fbi and atf have

suspended their efforts to get inside his apartment. let me bring in clint van zandt, crime analyst for nbc news and a former fbi profiler. i think one of the puzzling things about this is that this guy goes up to police, he turns himself in very quietly, he calls himself the joker and then he says, by the way, i've booby trapped my apartment. what do you make of that? >> well, a number of things. chris, when we consider what your former -- the last guest said about the alarm going off, the music going off at midnight, realize it was less than 30 minutes, plus or minus later, when the shootings started. so we have to consider as an investigator, as an fbi agent, was that something that he intentionally did to draw

attention to his apartment? number one, did he want a neighbor, a landlord, even a law enforcement officer to try and go in, set off an explosion, therefore, first responders would rush to that scene and he would be three miles away doing a shooting? now, chris, that's the exact same thing that happened in europe. two days from now it will be the one-year anniversary of that terrible shooting on that island where all of those teenagers were shot and killed. he set off the explosive device in the city itself and then went out and did the shooting. did he model his behavior after that same shooter and in this particular case once he didn't need that anymore, did he tell law enforcement because, look, he carried a pistol, a 70 automatic pistol, just like police do, a shotgun, just like police do, ar-15, just like police do.

he wore a uniform like police, the military. was this guy some type of a wannabe but at that time there was no need for law enforcement officers to go in so he offered up that information? that's what fbi agents and investigators are going to have to consider as they try to put the pieces of this terrible puzzle back together. >> and he dyes his hair this orange color, and do you put any other significance on that or -- >> well, he chose this particular date, this time, the opening of the movie. i mean, this is a target-rich environment. this is a terrible place to act out violently just like the movie is violent and by doing that to his hair and by making that statement, he is linking himself to that movie and to that scenario. the question is, what does that

mean? chris, this is not somebody who freud would say is crazy. he knew what he was doing. he has methodically planned this. he assembled the weapons over a two or three-month period. he got the uniforms from the internet. he bought 6,000 or plus rounds of ammunition. chris, i saw someone on tv today talk about how methodical when the shooting started, not only did they throw these one or two tear gas canisters, he had the long gauge shotgun up close, so he's firing that shotgun, putting buck shot out, anyone close to him, that would drive them away. he drops the shotgun and then

transitions to the ar-15 and starts firing at people as they are trying to run out. this guy thought this out, planned it, knew what he was doing. this is not crazy. this is methodical. >> and you also have a studious guy, somebody who has been described as a brilliant science student, quiet. in fact, a lot of his neighbors, now that he's moved here, said what was so unusual about the music blasting is he usually kept to himself. he kept the shades closed. but your profiler hat on for us. based on what you know and based upon what you know about these kinds of situations, what other things would you expect to learn about him or what are the key questions you want answered, clint? >> chris, we know from studies that in 75% of mass shootings, realize there's been 27 mass shootings, mass casualties since the 1999 columbine incident and in a study of those mass shootings, about 75% of the time someone else either knew what was going to happen or suspected what was going to happen. now, there are going to be those who say, well, there's a mental health issue here and it could be. he's in his mid-20s. the mental health issues could be coming forward again. who perhaps would know better than his parents? they have yet to have the chance to talk about this. so there's a lot of things we need to know about this guy's background, much less him no

longer being in college, what was the final catalyst that brought him to this point? >> clint van zandt, we always appreciate your expertise. clint, thank you so much. when we come back live here to aurora, colorado, 12 people killed, 58 wounded in the movie theater behind me. we will take a look at the victims. [ donovan ] i hit a wall.

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joining me is marcus weaver who was also in the theater. obviously you have your arm in a sling. tell me about your injury. >> i wasn't really aware that i suffered an injury until i was trying to evacuate the theater. we had a friend, we were all down on the ground. he continued to fire shots. didn't know like when a good time to go is because he kept firing them and in between the shots, people were screaming, running for the exits, and then he would fire more. that went on like eight times. the whole time i'm thinking down there, my good friend rebecca, went to the movie, single mom, actually still missing -- >> she's missing? >> yeah. she suffered -- when i picked her up -- when he stopped firing, i picked her up, she had blood all over and she was unconscious. my first instinct was to get us out of there. i was going through the aisle

and people were shot, laying in the way, people coming down the stairs. there were also people coming down the steps as well. it made it difficult for us to go by. ended up falling down. so i just set her down, i got out and figured i could come in with the police and they would come help her out better than i could. and the gunman stopped firing and he started again. i think i suffered an injury then but i didn't know i was shot because i was trying to get out of there. >> you must have been in a state of shock? >> i think i'm still in a state of shock. >> you actually have your shirt with you. we can see that -- >> yeah. everybody noticed it except for me and you can see the two bullet holes there from the shrapnel and it's still in my arm. they put a cast on and i'm not doing well with it. but it's right here.

and i also have the shrapnel still in my shoulder muscle. and so it does hurt a little bit, you know, they did give me great treatment at the hospital i was at last night. they tried to stay that they were evacuating rebecca out when i was asking about her, when i was outside. by the time i got outside, the police were coming in and people were leaving and it was complete chaos. so my thing was to make sure it was okay before i went to any ambulance or hospital. i refused and several eyewitnesss, i really care about my friend and to this day they still don't know in the past 24 hours where she's at. the last time i saw her, she had blood all over her and she was just laying there. and i regret not trying to get her out but at the same time there was so many things going on. there was gunshots and i think

that's when i suffered the wound. >> and it was still dark? the movie still playing. i can't even imagine. you almost must have felt trapped in, there especially for people who were in the middle of the theater and were trying to get out of the aisles. >> i was in the middle of the theater. it's always the best seat but the thing was, when that gas went off, we all thought it was just -- the gas went left to ride and we thought, man, there are a lot of little kids there watching the "batman" movie. we assumed it was just a prank or a part of the movie. but he fired two shots like at the bar or the front row area and then it lit off these fireworks and i'm like, who's bringing fireworks to a movie theater and that's when the smoke kind of went over to the right and you can see this guy with a big gun just blasting. and all you heard was, boom, boom, boom. so that's when i grabbed rebecca and the girl next to me, who i didn't even know, and we were on the floor between -- sandwiched in between the rows. and i'm a big guy and the row was taking up all my row. i was getting on top of those guys hoping i didn't get shot in

the back or whatever. i have scars on my knees to prove it. it was just the most helpless situation i think i've ever been in and i was just thinking, you know, just calm down, what can you do? so i decided, once he stopped firing, that i would just get up, grab her, and leave and then, you know, it just didn't happen that way and it was so chaotic. there were little kids screaming for their parents. there were people shot in the head that i was crawling over. there were people who had chunks out of their legs. it was the most horrific scene and i wanted to help everybody but i felt the best thing i could do was get out and get the police in or if the guy came my way, try to tackle him. then he started shooting again and it really made it apparent, i don't know if that was happening and people were mad rushing for the exits. as i go out into the theater lobby, there were so many people -- the other movie theaters had heard what was happening. they converged, too. so we're just all this huge sandwich trying to get out the door and i didn't even worry about my arm until i got outside and noticed that it was bleeding. >> you've been through a traumatic experience, to say the least. you're injured, your friend is missing. how are you even processing all of this? >> you know, this whole incident has restored my faith and like things i know are true, i know that, you know, we might be

battered. this might be something that like -- you know, maybe changes the way we think about things. maybe we should be more secure in our thinking with our children and all difference kinds of things but most important it's strengthened my faith in the lord. i feel like he protected me through that. i don't know why some people get killed and some people don't. at the same time, i really feel like his grace was sufficient and i just ask that we all just take a step back and we reflect on this as a country, as a city, aurora, and we might be wounded like my arm right now but i think that we're going to heal. i know that's hard to say right now because my friend is missing and i talked to her family. she's got two little daughters, you know. this girl was a single mom who tried to do everything she could for her kids to be the best mom. i talked to her ex-husband.

he was in tears. i just feel that if i could find answers to where she's at and what's going on, whether she is in the hospital paralyzed or in critical condition and can't call or whatever, i know she's definitely not able body and i know that like the worst case scenario could be that she may be inside that theater. so i don't know -- >> well, we hope that you get the answers that you're searching for and good luck to you. thank you so much for taking the time. >> sure. >> i hope you heal physically and i know the emotional part of it will come with your faith and with your family and friends. thank you, marcus, weaver, for being with us. and we're going to talk more about this community of aurora, colorado, when our special coverage continues. [ freeman ] a hundredth of a second? ♪ it's faster than the blink of an eye. ♪ faster than a flash of lightning. and it was the difference between michael phelps winning

eight gold medals... instead of seven. a hundredth of a second... just think of the cheers if lightning strikes twice. visa. supporting athletes and the olympic games for 25 years. join our global cheer.

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i'm sure that many of you that are parents had the same reaction that i did when i heard this news. now, my daughters go to the movies. what if malia and sasha had been at the theater as so many of our kids do every day? michelle and i will be fortunate to hug our girls a little tighter tonight and i'm sure you will do the same with your children. >> that was the president earlier today, both he and mitt romney issued statements of

sympathy to the victims here in aurora, colorado, and all politicians have suspended political ads on television here in colorado. but as marcus weaver just asked the question, what next, what happens here in aurora, let me bring in two guests. bill briggs is an nbc news contributor, also covered columbine, which is just 12, 13 miles down the road. and tom, whose son daniel was killed at columbine, who was just 15 years old. bill, all of us were at columbine and experienced it in our own ways. how does a community cope when in this aftermath it's just such a shock? everyone we've spoken to seems to be in a state of shock? >> i think that's the first stage, we all have to get through that again. we've gone through this once, it's so horribly familiar. we work through that once again. this is a community now with some practice on how to handle this, how to cope, how to help the victims, how to help the

police officers and the paramedics who have stepped in. unfortunately, we're pretty good at it. >> and, tom, what would you say? as i've been watching some of the survivors come through and they speak so matter of of fac and you know that's been through a tragedy and you can put yourself in the shoes of the family members. >> they are in shock and it's hard to say how they will react. i think they have to accept it's going to be very difficult, life-changing. even the students who were in the library at columbine, those students who survived, it's very difficult for them. still traumatic for many of them. >> you have become a spokesperson for ceasefire colorado, but i also heard today, you saying you're not sure this will change anything. tell me what you hope to do and

why you think this won't make a difference. >> well, i think experience, unfortunately sadly has shown us that it won't bring about much change. we tend to react. we say how terrible, how terrible, why can't we do something? and then we go back to our lives. and by we, i don't mean me certainly, but many people if it didn't directly impact, they will move on from there, because that's the pattern in america. we seem to just be so accepting of this terrible epidemic of gun violence. >> we did talk about it after columbine, more recently after the gabby giffords shooting. do you think anything will change? >> i think in colorado, it's an interesting dynamic. it's a frontier state with a western mentality. guns are a part of the culture here. i don't see that changing. it's interesting tom is in the midy of this fight because this is a tough place to basically

sell that argument here in colorado. >> when you have something measured which we did in colorado, we said we need to close the gun show loophole. why should a criminal be able to go into a gun show and buy a gun? denied at one table and buy it at another. we put it on the balot. they refused to close the hole. took it to the vote of the people. 70% of the people said yes. >> why do you think that worked when it's been so difficult nationally and state by state? >> because you know, frankly it's a lot easier for the gun lobby, people who don't want to see change, to badger, buy, and bully 51 out of a hundred legislators. it's a lot tougher for them to do that to a whole electorate. who can look at it and say, this is reasonable. this doesn't hurt us. we still have our rights. we can still go to the gun show 23 we're law abiding and buy a

gun. but let's not let those people go to a gun show and buy a gun so readily. >> you hear it from gun owners everywhere, it's not the guns. it's people who are mentally ill. >> but this man was not a criminal. we will find out how mentally disturbed he was. obviously there was a mental disturbance. yet society did not intervene and do anything about him. and yet we make it so easy for someone like him to get a gun. because guns are so readily available. when they say it's the person, not the gun. we've had a lot of different kind of people commit these horrible crimes. we've seen it happen in so many places, but the common denominator is the gun. >> bill, you were a reporter in this area for how many years? >> too many. >> obviously going back at least to columbine. tell me what you think the stories will focus on tomorrow. will there be any substantive

discussion about guns? >> i think there's always substantive -- sub stance to each of these mass tragedies. it's always the conversation about the gun. it's a very important conversation, as tom said. it typically doesn't really go anywhere. there's a lobbying reason for that. i think we will learn a bit more about mental illness, i hope, out of this situation. the columbine situation, mental illness played a big factor in that, and i think we'll find out it did in this as well. it's been stig mattized and it needs to be brought out sooner. >> we're not an intervening nation. we stand aside and don't bother people. >> there's a couple personality things that i want to ask you about. one was just your reaction. obviously for me when i heard where it was, immediately i thought, wow, i was here recently on another story. i remembered driving in the area

and thinking, that is so close to columbine. how did this happen again? what went through your mind when you heard? >> shock. disbelief. i think it was just disbelief, this can't be happening in this community again. >> and there also, i thought was very poignantly and we heard the brother of one of the victims talking about how he doesn't want the name of the shooter to be the only name that's out there. and i'm guessing you can really relate to that. >> i can very much relate to that. i think that's something that the media can play such a large role in, although it's difficult when you have so many names and so many victims, but it helps so much to have the media talking about the victims and their stories, stories of their lives. because unfortunately so many people focus on the killers, the killers, the killers. we can't have that kind of focus. yes, let's find out about them. let's not use their name.

normally when i speak, i speak of the kol bum bin killers. i don't use their names a lot. >> it's been very difficult, obviously, and one of the things that we're dealing with as journalists, with this exception, we don't really know who the victims are. so we're waiting to hear. it's got to be a methad cal process on the part of the police because you don't want someone to learn on television or see in the newspaper that somebody they know or loved has been killed. >> i think that's part of what we learned, what this law enforcement community learned in the columbine situation, how to do that right. how to not release information that would hurt people or a case prematurely. in this case, they have a live suspect and need to see it through to justice. >> bill, i'm glad to see you again. sorry under such sirks and you

as well tom, thanks so much and for your great work that you've been doing, we really appreciate it. that's going to do it from here in aurora, colorado. we are remembering the victims, 12 who were killed. 58 who were injured. we'll have complete coverage on msnbc and i'll see you back here for special coverage tomorrow afternoon. i'm chris jansing. thank you. 58 who were injured. mebody didnk with travelocity, with 24/7 customer support to help move them to the pool daddy promised! look at me, i'm swimming!

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